Pitfalls of Atheist Rejection of Moral Absolutes


broken machines

Even if the Bible was no better than this the atheist cannot justly condemn it with a double standard.


Eager to be free from Moral Absolutes

One of the pitfalls the Atheist makes for himself is the rejection of Moral Absolutes. The common atheist I have met normally shuns Moral Absolutes because it then becomes tied to a metaphysical Morality-maker who everyone knows is God. In the atheists eagerness to make sure he cannot be brought under the compliance to any moral code, commandments from God or a Morality-maker he creates an abyssal that removes him from everyone else.

Justifications for morality in Atheism

To make matters worse for the atheist he then attempts to ground any moral conception or ethic in materialistic explanation. This explanation is supposedly the shield of defense against Christianity or any metaphysical authorship because it locates all morality in a variety of naturalistic explanations.  Darwinian naturalism, gets a few votes, materialism gets its votes, humanism gets it adherents, personal concoctions of newspaper, magazines, atheist blogs and YouTube commentary fill out the concept for many others.

The laymen resources

Some more sophisticated anti-theist propagandists refer to Dr. Dawkins, the late Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett or John Loftus. All of these men have written their books and debated various Christians (often with disastrous results) but they are the mainstay for new ideas, and for some the courage to attack Christians in all forms of media and public mocking.

The Atheist writers offer little help

Even with these PhD’s the inescapable conclusions reemerge in every atheist challenge. What conclusions? Morality does exist whether you claim it from God or from nature or from societal norms. What other conclusion? If there is no absolute morality there is no specific moral code binding on any one of us. I am not ruled by another’s conscience except by consent. If I am compliant without consent I am under moral constraint and seek to be free from it. It is in this mixed bag that some atheist will not admit to any morality, they are amoral and live according to their own dictates with all the internal modifications needed to interact with the world they live in. If there were any people group that need to comply the most it would be this group. Since everyone outside of themselves thinks tangental to their mental construct of morality they cannot say they have anyone agreeing with them in principle, only in terms of pragmatism…lets get along to live peaceably. The Atheist horsemen cannot set this atheist free in this world, they can only give credence to particular nuances in individual atheist ethic. For the rest who admit to morality whether its a mixture of moral absolutes or personal moral principles these people have the difficulty of preaching morality to others without the slightest authority to do so.

Read this short article taken from John Loftus website.


What Can Account for Morality, We’re Asked?In David Eller’s excellent book, Atheism Advanced, Eller basically explains morality as those moral rules made up by people in order to define what it means to be part of any culture. They are usually based upon the religious myths each culture accepts. There is no morality then, only “moralities.”
He finds that there are moralities among animals like Chimps, so it shouldn’t surprise us when language bearing humans came up with more elaborate moral rules. And since we’re talking about human beings, it’s no surprise that our moralities have some major similarities since we are social animals who need to get along, to be loved and to love, to help and to be helped. Anyone who doesn’t accept the moral rules of a culture are not allowed in the group, or we banish them, ostracize them, imprison them, and kill them. Do you want the benefits of being in the group? Then obey the moral rules, or at least don’t get caught. Otherwise, you’re on your own. As such, there is nothing prohibiting someone from not accepting the moral rules of a culture if s/he doesn’t want the benefits of the group (which would be a Freudian “death wish”). Are acts like murder, rape, and theft objectively and universally “wrong” then? That’s probably a nonsensical question. 
Therefore, there can be no argument for the existence of God based on morality. Human beings make up their own moralities because we’re social beings who need to belong and get along. Morality is part of our survival instinct. We need other people to survive!
———-For a Christian who might be stunned by the conclusion that it’s probably a nonsensical question whether or not murder, rape, and theft are objectively and universally “wrong,” then think again. Look at your own Bible. There is plenty of that to be found in it, all sanctioned by your barbaric God. Elsewhere I’ve argued that rational self-interest can account for our morality.

Not so fast, there’s a problem

The Christian finds an inherent problem with this authors conclusion; namely, if that group creates its own morality that is for the purpose of a survival instinct, what makes them think that nature has not selected us to adopt a different morality that derives glory and honor from completely annihilating this other people group? We are completely with our moral right and without the slightest implied wrong-doing on our part we may conduct our warring as long as we exist. While the doomed to extinction people group may find us reprehensible we are naturally disposed to it and consequently beyond reproach. Transfer this same line of reasoning to God, the bible and Christians, how can the atheist possibly find Christianity, the bible or God morally wrong in any case since we have adopted our own moral code? It would not matter if the bible was a complete jumble of failing tic-tac-toe games or unfinished seduko games. It would not matter in the slightest if the numbers were wrong or the games were all ties. Its irrelevant. The atheist by his own admission has a morality that is only adopted by an agreeable society of atheists (if they wanted to form community) and that morality has no power to condemn or approve my morality no matter how different it may be to them.

The right to judge is rendered powerless by the atheist

The pitfall of the atheist moral relativism is that it has no authority to condemn God or the bible except among those who agree with them. The outsider need not concern himself in the slightest because their moral code is not founded upon anything other than their own personal proclivities and tastes. The atheist in his eagerness to declare himself free from moral absolutes has rendered his angry moralizing of God and the bible as irrelevant since I do not hold to their moral code…and cannot since it is not standardized.

Condemnations are no more than personal bias

There are a great many other things that can be said about atheist moralizing, but one thing is for certain, their condemnations are strictly personal and according to their own axioms I am free from any condemnation by them. Now, they spend alot of time bashing God, condemning the bible’s texts on slavery, rape or genocide, but all of that is mere bluster and grandstanding…and it has no relevance whatsoever unless the atheist is playing by the rules of the Christian where such actions would be condemned.

The double-standard renders their argument illogical

But, is this not the point? The atheist refuses to be constrained by a Morality-maker other than themselves, therefore the atheist is using a double-standard against the Christian and blatantly calling the Christian into account to the atheist…where in fact the atheist has claimed the Christian cannot condemn him because he does not believe in God or any Morality-maker.

This is the working of the power of sin in the atheist, it is the irrationality of the Void, a reigning of Sin in the heart.





Personal experience

As a Christian Apologist its difficult to understand at times what makes the Atheist tick. Over the years I’ve come to understand some basics of how atheism works in people. I was an atheist while I was growing up, my mom was a strong atheist and would have nothing to do with religion or religious people. I learned from the outset that religion was to be mocked and relegated to unproved and unsubstantiated claims. It seemed God was an idea not thought-through. I had many questions for the theist growing up, but I never met one where I could articulate my questions and expect any kind of reasonable answer. My distance from religious people was not one that I created or even my mom, I just never grew up around religious people that would share their faith or question me about mine.

Atheism must grow to survive

Of course not everyone shares that estrangement from religious people, others grew up in homes that were Christian or Catholic and they always had doubts about God and the bible. For a while they acquiesced to their parents and Christian friends at church but those nagging questions and uncertainty sat powerfully upon the throne of intellect. After a while atheism for them was the adolescent quintessential rebellion, it struck at everything around them and formed a world of isolation. This isolation is the pairing up of what was in their hearts and what they were now experiencing by going against the tide of Christian upbringing. It takes strength to swim against the norm, atheism in the heart could not be just a simple ‘uncertainty’ it must have greater horsepower in order to survive the Christian assumptions of God, the authority of the bible, the morals of the Christian and the meta-narratives of creation, Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and many other Christian teachings.

What is the Void?

What the young atheist needs is a way to find freedom from all constraints in order to garner all the horsepower one can from a belief that describes itself as unbelief. Enter the Void. This is a mental construct that is placed upon the throne of the heart to reign supreme. What is it? Negatively it is a rejection of all moral constraint, all religious authority, all personal bonds with any ideology that attempts to bind their conscience to a code of ethics or morality that impinges their free expression. Positively it is the personal construction of a mindset that unbinds itself from genuine logic or reasoning that pushes them back into religion or ideologies they have renounced. Here in the Void logic need not be true logic, reasoning need not be coherent, irrationalism is never exposed to the light of actual logic. The Void is a suppressed conscience validated by the emotional state protected by the intellect.

Atheism must reject sound reason

There is a lot of work that goes into maintaining the supreme power of the Void when the intellect is assaulted by sound reason and valid logic every day. In order to maintain the Void, the atheist must become a spin-master. When I say he must, that is an understatement, he absolutely under no circumstances can permit the entry of valid reasoning or logical argument that questions the authority of the Void and its right to hold such a sway in his/her life. In short, as amazing as this seems, the atheist which glories in proclaiming himself the logician and sits in judgment over vast multitudes as reasoner-extraordinaire, cannot allow the entry of valid argument and logical conclusions move him/her from abandoning the Void.

The atheist it seems identifies him/herself with the Void to such an extent all information is sifted through the grid of “Void-protection”…kinda like a virus protection program for a computer where every program is checked and every file scrutinized to protect the internal information from corruption.

Atheist maintenance

This is where the work must begin, in order to keep up the pretense of Atheism-is-logical, the atheist must engage in the dangerous occupation of listening too and articulating a logical argument and display valid reasoning. The problem of course is not seen immediately. You find many atheists who argue very persuasively and many people reading or listening to them find their logic and reasoning sound, verifiable and coherent. But, using the evolution analogy the micro-evolution or adaptation equivalent to minor atheist claims eg. gods have been found false, religions oppressive and superstitions harmful, are valid claims. But atheism itself wants the whole enchilada, it wants to validate itself with a jump to macro-evolution which is equivalent to saying  those smaller generalizations inductively prove atheism as an ‘unbelief’ is founded upon science, logic and evidences which cannot be denied. However, when the Christian goes beyond the first defense of intellectual battles and recognizes their defeat is actual even though they claim-in-chains they have won; the emotional battle begins. Now all bets are off; logic, reason and evidence serve no purpose for the atheist. It must be understood the Christian is under strict rules not to break the laws of logic, but that does not apply to the atheist, nor will he permit it to apply to him/her. A double standard is paramount in atheist conversations where emotion is the attacker.

Protect the Void by all means

The atheist is nuanced, he/she has a Void that is purely their own and has no authority outside of itself. This is partly why we read of so many atheists that will not align with any other atheist to protect the Void. The atheist own personal intellect  is the sole guard and has been entrusted with that duty. Atheists band together for the peripherals eg. evolution, gay rights, leftist agendas. These activities are the first defense, albeit the weakest. The intellect of the atheist can agree with other atheist intellect to form a common alliance for the purpose of protecting the Void within each of them. This is where the Christian often meets with the front-lines of atheism, when anti-theist claims are made, the Christian fights against those claims, or when evolution is promoted the Christian resists with anti-evolutionary counter-claim. But, again the Void is never actually questioned at all. The atheist can talk all day long and invent myriads of assertions and claims that contain no substantive argument or evidence. The atheist may join ranks with another atheist on an intellectual level for the sole purpose of attacking the Christian and yet personally hold no other commonality than the defense of their own personal Void.

The Void has its reasons

Remember the Void itself is the engine that powers all of the arguments and produces the desire to reject anything that endangers the Void.  Remember also that the Void is not a logical choice, its an emotional action who’s sole purpose is to suppress the internal knowledge of God, truth, logic and anything else that disrupts the emotional state and draws the mind into conclusions it cannot accept. At the base of many atheist arguments you hear this. My mom died…God should have; I was alone, afraid and victimized…God could have; I am unloved, unwanted, rejected…where is God? These difficult scenarios are encountered by us all, but some at their darkest hour wanted to believe, but their hopes were crushed and with that there arose an anger that ‘rejected God back’ for what happened to them. After years, these scenarios have been overlaid with intellectual argument that compares to the strata of the Grand Canyon. This is only one type of person that chose the Void, there are others. The point here is not to psychoanalyze the atheist, its to recognize the chosen Void that set them free ( in their opinion) to live how they want is completely self-serving. It seems the real purpose of the Void is for self-preservation and atheism is one aspect or avenue the mind can use to deal with reality. If any atheist is reading this right now and says “religion does all of these things too”. That would be true, the difference of course is humanly devised religion invents a god while rejecting the true God. The invented god is one that is tame, one that is predictable and always one that is accepting of their own personal proclivities. Its an opposite method using the same principles found in atheism. For this reason Christianity is opposed to false religions equally as much as atheism; they both deny the One True God and replace Him with alternative solutions.

Atheism and its intellectual arguments are smoke-screen

From the most advanced and intellectual Christian Apologist to the novice Christian believer, they both know that atheism and false religions are suppressors of the truth which permit the person who is suppressing the knowledge of God to have emotional stability while he endeavors to please himself however he wills.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

It is the experience of every Christian who debates or engages in conversations with Atheists or Agnostics that suppression of the truth is the very heart of the Void. What other group of people declare how wise they are in logic, reason and science than the atheist? I know of none. What other group of people see without perceiving  refuse to give thanks to God nor acknowledge him or his creative power than the atheist? What other people are to be so pitied and so lamented as the atheist? Who among men in our culture are so backwards in their thinking, so illogical and so irrational as the atheist? I can think of no other people group that pretend to so high of intellectual and rational thinking but internally they are in a chaotic world, lost and scared. Oh the smoke screens are up, the actors are on stage, the masks are on and the directors are guiding the cast. But the play must come to an end and the actors eventually remove the masks step off the stage and join the audience.

The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This is Paul’s words to the Romans before he commenced to illustrate the downfall of pagan men. The best Christian apologist cannot remove the Void, we cannot nullify irrational arguments with rationality. We cannot introduce enough logic to persuade the illogical man/woman that its ok to abandon their need for self-preservation. In short, they would die first…and that my dear Christian is the genuine call of discipleship and biblical salvation. It is recognizing that until we all come to grips with dying to self that God will lavish His love upon us and pour out grace after grace and bring faith and hope and love into empty lives.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility


For a remarkable and first rate explanation of Atheism please visit this blog where I took the term ‘Void’ and used it to clarify my own understanding of atheism.






VICTOR STENGER A Christian Response to His Atheist Primer 1

victor stenger

Victor Stenger Physicist and PhD wrote an article published in the Huff post blog Feb 28th 2014 called How to debate a Christian apologist.  Please read the article here.


After reading the article I decided to answer his atheist debate primer by responding to the polemic myself. In his articles he offered the Christian answer to various atheist assertions. Under these Christian statements he adds his own retort to help the atheist appear smooth and keep the audience from taking sides against the atheist debater. My reasons for responding are simple. First, I will attempt to show Dr. Stenger’s coaching the atheist debater ends up coaching him into a substantial defeat. Second, I wanted to use this article of ‘defending atheism’ against the Christian apologist as a means of training myself and other Christian apologists. Thirdly, this Christian author enjoys subjecting the New-Atheist light regime to critical examination, so once examined, the arguments of the New Atheist do not frighten younger Christians. I will attempt to expose the darkness of atheist-thinking to the light of Christian-thinking and a biblical worldview. With all educational heavy-weights, they use what they believe is sound reasoning and critical analysis upon the Christian claims. These atheist apologists usually pull no punches when it comes to reproaching the Christian as a novice-thinker and logic-lightweight. It does the Christian good to see these men such as Dr. Stenger, are not heavy-weight philosophers nor do they share some DNA that makes their logic irrefutable. In short, like the hot-air filled Dr. Dawkins they are deflated easily once the source of their lofty words are exposed.

I believe Dr. Stenger’s article is plain ole damage control. The good Dr. is recognizing the atheist debater is losing his shirt when debating the Christian apologist and to help stem the tide of continual debate failures Dr. Stenger wrote up a few ‘primer’ pieces so the atheist will not appear utterly foolish in debating someone who knows more about atheism and what it asserts than the atheist does.

Over the years I have debated many atheists in person and online in informal one-on-one scenarios. What the Christian will find as I have is each atheist attempts to nuance his personal atheism in such a way that when the Christian apologist attacks the assertions of the atheism, this specific atheist claims “that’s not what I believe”. Because there is no formal external dogmas within atheism this act of ‘dodging’ the Christian apologists assertion is part of what it means to debate or discuss atheism with an atheist. The Christian apologist learns debating atheism one-on-one with another atheist cannot proceed like it would with a cultist so pseudo-christian cult where various dogmas differentiate between it and orthodox Christianity. As can be seen by Dr. Stenger’s comments, the appeal to ‘differences’ in atheist views is supposed to dislodge the Christian Apologist argument by insinuating the Christian apologist is referring to beliefs held by other atheists not present to defend themselves.

The nuanced atheist has a self-manufactured belief structure; the spongy-ness of atheist thought soaks up whatever appeals to the self-described atheist. Normally our nuanced atheist gathers from various sciences and other atheist thinkers. The atheist blog, even You Tube are good places for the atheist to go learn new arguments to support their own personal ideology. Facebook has also become the bully pulpit for internet atheists to confront Christian doctrines and philosophy.

The New Atheists are of a stripe that attacks Christianity and attempts to turn others away from belief in Christianity. The use of various arguments against Christianity is only one tool; if that doesn’t work its followed by shaming them by ad hominem attacks or bandwaggoning their own  favorite PhD. New attacks to Christianity arrive by the media. In some article, essay or book the latest Dr. So-and-so has provided some kind of science admixed with atheist philosophy to serve their purposes and season the meal they serve the public. Because it is labeled ‘science’ the impression they want to give is their information is ‘fact’ and not ‘blind faith’. This tactic works well on a public that wants only sound-bites, not a discourse in technical terms. I shall attempt to show several of Dr. Stenger’s statements originate from blind-faith. What the atheist condemns in Christians is used openly by atheists writers trying to prove their arguments.

Let us begin with an analysis of Dr. Stenger’s article, putting his ideas and answers alongside the Christian Apologist rebuttal.

Dr. Stenger has said he has participated in a number of events (Christian vs Atheist debate) and watched others that include arguments that have all been refuted by the atheist many times. If this were true, those refutations would have been headliners for every atheist blog and repeated ad nauseum on You Tube or played on the media. But in reality we find a far different story. Debates with Dr.William Lane Craig have been crushing defeats for every atheist so far. When Dr. William Lane Craig and the panel debated Dr. Dawkins and his panel it was obvious the atheist never mounted a real attack on Christianity nor did they really prove their own point. In fact the atheist panel under-whelmed everyone with side stepping. No serious attempt was even made to undermine the argument of Dr. Craig by any of the atheist panel. See it for yourself here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__m6LzS5EbY . I need not elaborate on the failure of Sam Harris in his debate with Dr. Craig and the Disaster of Dr. Dawkins had with John Lennox. When it comes to debating the issues the Christian Apologist clearly can prove his points and leave without them being overcome by any atheist argument presented thus far.

Dr. Stenger says “Atheists…with one or two exceptions don’t make a living promoting atheism” he evidently realizes this lack of expertise in presenting their own case makes it a “tougher job preparing for these debates”.

I think it might be important to understand that if the original argument from the atheist was as sound, rational and empirically provable as the atheist wants us to believe, there would be little necessity to answer minor issues dragged up by Christians attempting to derail valid atheist argument. But as Dr. Stenger wisely notes, these statements or questions from the Christian take a lot of steam from the atheist argument. In short, they must be addressed. This is nothing short of a confession of inadequate argument arising from the atheist.

During the debate rebuttals Stenger is concerned the atheist is not well versed in points the Christian Apologist will make and because of that, ignore or be unable to defend himself against them. The failure to give a cogent reply supplies the impetus for Dr. Stenger’s primer.

I believe this is a very important point to consider. Instead of Dr. Stenger working on polishing the original atheist argument so that it makes the best impression, carries the most weight and delivers the knock out punch, he moves over into the very arena that he earlier warned the atheist layperson not to go “It is unwise for a layperson to debate a theologian”. He is moving from his expertise in physics to theology and philosophy. This is important for every apologist to consider, the empiricist cannot conquer ideas with observations, bare data, experiments or theories, they must be inserted into a philosophy that addresses the intangibles of life where we all live. What intangibles? I think it is these; is it true?, is it real? is it logical? is it important to me? What is the value of arguing for atheism if the atheist believes it to be irrelevant to a persons well being or understanding the world he lives in? He does not argue as though it is unprofitable, the whole atheist-engine is based upon the intangible basic belief  ‘truth is better than falsehood’. So with that ethic driving the debate between Christian and Atheist the very platform for establishing materialism or naturalism from the atheist perspective rests upon the intangible explained only by the philosophical.

What comes next is in my opinion appalling. Dr. Stenger says “In a debate, impressions are more important than the substance of an argument and not answering the point makes a bad impression”. When the most important things of life are being debated; things like God, religion, faith, scientific knowledge, truth, reality; these are no trifles and true substance in ones answers to these topics means everything. By merely creating the impression that you have a substantive argument verses actually having true substance contained in your argument is a tremendous distinction to make. Anyone wanting truth over falsehood considers creating the appearance of substantive argument deceptive; especially when it is come to light substance and evidence were missing. Its one thing to fail to defend your position, its another to know your position is indefensible but cloak it with pretended facts. 

It is in the next section that Dr. Stenger forms his primer for the atheist debater. He suggests memorizing these as canned responses so the atheist will appear as smooth as the Christian apologist. Again its important to note that Dr. Stenger is placing high value on appearances, these “canned responses” as he calls them are essentially anecdotal. The atheist debater has no in-depth knowledge of what he is responding with so when called out by the Christian apologist the atheist may likely rebut with only his own observations and biased commentary. A valuable point for the Christian Apologist to understand, if this sort of anecdotal response is given by the logic-claiming atheist he/she is contriving an informal fallacy. Accordingly there may follow hasty generalizations or inductive reasoning giving the Christian apologist answers in the form of post hoc fallacies. What is important to understand is this is a cat-bag for the atheist debater. Once he has opened this bag and let one cat out ( a piece of anecdotal evidence) he will forever be unable to re-bag that cat in front of the Christian Apologist. This is an important warning to the Christian apologist as well and a savvy atheist debater will eat his lunch over a trivial point and minimize the much greater and important points the Christian apologist is attempting to show. In at debate similar to a wrestling match, these are ‘point makers’ and the audience remembers these point makers later.

Dr. Stenger quotes Dan Barker an apostate and atheist who says the audience will not remember 10% of what was said but will remember an “impression” made by one or the other debaters and go home with that impression being influential on future learning. There is some truth behind the nature of debates, the idea of one side prevailing over the other makes for the ‘draw’ so curiosity and plain ole partisanship meet together.

Now Dr. Stenger sets forth the philosophical statements of the Christian and coaches the atheist debater on how to reply.

The Christian statement will be bold and Dr. Stengers commentary will be analyzed and contained in my response under each statement. For the sake of brevity I will not quote all of Dr. Stengers comments on each Christian statement; please read the article by Dr. Stenger or place it alongside for comparison. I gave the link at the front of this article.

God can be proved to exist by logic alone. For example, we have the ontological argument, which appears in many forms. It was first proposed by St. Anselm in the 11th century. He defines God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” If such a being only exists in the mind, then we could conceive of a greater being. But we cannot imagine a greater being than God, so God must exist in reality.

Here Dr. Stenger states that this logic is offered in many forms but all of them have logic flaws; namely it attempts to prove too much. He then says it can prove non-existent things or even a perfect pizza. I think maybe Dr. Stenger was writing some humor about the perfect pizza, the pizza I’ve had has been eaten by others and they conceive a greater pizza…so that example doesn’t fit. The logic offered here is sound reasoning, its not unreasonable to think the greatest being to be conceived is actually in existence and that being is God. But that being said, the scripture presents a clearer answer. 1Co 1:21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 

Putting it precisely God cannot be known by human logic. God’s existence is understood intuitively by the human mind as it understands human morality, truth and judgment. But knowing God beyond the intuitive human mind is the work of the Holy Spirit. This is why the unbelieving mind may give assent to God’s existence or something transcendent but it also uses the same logic to point them to extraterrestrials or even perfect pizzas. These arguments are meant to point to the reasonableness of a ‘belief in God’ not to knowing the God of scripture through logic. The scripture assigns this to the work of the scripture itself and the revelation of truth by the Holy Spirit of God. 

Pizzas, flying spaghetti monsters etc are not what’s in the scope of St. Anselm definition and these are normally used to poke fun at the Christian. 

This next paragraph is a nightmare for Dr. Stenger. In his attempt discredit the use of logic in the Ontological argument for God, and probably the other arguments too, he begins by effectively nullifying the use of syllogism. He starts off saying ” no logical deduction can tell you anything that is not already embedded in its premises.” That is the point good Dr.; in order to make a logical argument major and minor premises are made so that conclusions to the argument can be understood as valid or invalid. What comes next is amazing. Dr. Stenger says “Only by observation can we demonstrate whether the premises accurately describe or reflect the real world.” I would ask Dr. Stenger, have you not heard that logical positivism has been debunked?

Let me help you; how do you know what is right or wrong from observation? Can you observe the logic of your scientific philosophy? Can you observe the scientific method in its propositional form? If you cannot observe it, then you have disqualified your own reasoning to use “only by observation can we demonstrate…”. The philosophy behind the scientific method is taken for granted, it is not of itself falsifiable because it is a preference, a philosophical approach to scientific investigation. Yet, offering such a narrow view of what is true and real by means of the scientific method disqualifies the scientific method itself. Remember this is a battle in the arena of the intangibles; the atheist no matter how much he wants to confine himself to the observable world cannot interpret it from the observed data alone. 

Defeaters like that one which are built into Dr. Stengers primer will lead the atheist debater into instant defeat. Using logic to undermine the use of logic and unwittingly nullify the use of the scientific method lets all the cats out of the cat-bag never to be gathered again. Placing this argument at the head of the debate only to be ‘pinned’ by the Christian apologist later shows clearly that logic used illogically powerfully impresses the audience that you are unable to defend your views. The potential conclusion may be…the atheist is wrong.

Science and religion are compatible as evidenced by the fact that many scientists are believers.

Dr. Stengers commentary here is essentially low-brow. It confines itself to ad hominem attacks on Christianity without producing one shred of evidence for his claims. The ad populum fallacy shows it head here proving nothing. 7% of scientists that are members of National Academy of Sciences are theists with no citation made. Afterwards the following ad hominem compartmentalization tripe. None of this adds anything to atheism, nor does it subtract anything from Christianity. Science and Religion are incompatible because of epistemic sources? There is no Christian looking for an aspirin recipe in the bible, nor is any Christian asking the scientific community to produce faith in a test tube. God is the creator, He has both faith and chemistry available in this world and the Christian can avail himself of both. This dichotomy is insisted upon because the New Atheist regime wants to perpetuate Christianity as rejecting logic and science because it is incompatible with the claim they make that Christianity is blind faith. But, again this is where the atheist debater will encounter much difficulty. The Christian faith is built upon the empirical evidence of Christ’s birth, life, death and resurrection. The miracles of God, healings and the prophetic coming to pass are all part of verifiable historical event. Unfortunately the atheist is resistant to look into these things unless of course it is only to cast endless skepticism upon those events.

Science was the result of Christianity, which introduced the use of rational thinking. Galileo, Newton, and other early scientists were Christians.

 The Dark ages, denoting that time from about the end of the 4 century to the 13th century had a great deal of troubles. The Visigoths pulling down the old establishments, the scriptures being tucked away from humanity in monasteries and the increasing power of the Roman Catholic church and its superstitions all tended towards dampening the human spirit. Instead of progress, lawlessness, instead of freedom, feudalism, instead of Christianity taking humanity forward, biblical Christianity was persecuted by the religious intolerance of popes and killed by Muslim raiders. The Islamic effect upon Europe cannot be mistaken as adding light to humanity, instead it made for more religious bondage. The departure from scripture added the spiritual darkness to a world embroiled in wars and power struggles. The superstition and ritual of the times darkened men’s hearts. Biblical Christianity did nothing to aid in darkening those days, men departing from the truth did that himself. The Dark Ages or the Medieval times were called so by those who thought their own century was more enlightened than previous. To others it was simply the lack of historical documents revealing this period in human history.

Science and religion were never at odds with each other. The Christian views science as a way of learning about the world that God had made. There was not a conflict of scientific investigation and religious devotion. What was discovered did shock the superstitious and called into question the ritualistic devotion. The Roman Catholics in power didn’t want its power base shaken with new ‘ideas’ that drew into question their authority on matters that were purely contrived for the sake of enslaving people to the priests. It was good that God brought in the janitors to sweep away such enslavement. The Humanism of the pre-enlightenment period were not atheists, Voltaire would have been more of a deist and Petrarch one of the first humanists sought for God that resembled more of a return to biblical Christianity. The atheist mindset had not invaded science to the ejection of God, it wasn’t until the later French and German philosophers in decrying the errors of the Roman Catholic Church demanded and pushed for separation from religious enslavement.

It was precisely because Christianity is not antithetical to science that Christianity birthed scientific endeavor. Galileo broke away from the old Greek Aristotelian-ism that still held the Scholastics. Dr. Stenger wants to put science into Aristotle’s lap, but Galileo moved it out and placed it in his own as time would prove. It is an important note for every Christian Apologist, atheism is entrenched itself in a stationary tower. It does not recognize that Christianity is a moving target. Christianity moves along, it receives scientific knowledge, it gains by cultural understandings, it flows under various governments without demanding the government to be toppled. The atheist even now attempts to lock Christianity in the dungeon of ancient political-religious governments or ancient mindsets that belong to centuries past. What the atheist shoots at can only be said to be ‘where the Church was’. It gains favor from the angry atheists by continuing to decry religious oppression, yet cannot find a modern Christian oppressing anyone. This same thinking flows over into the division between science and religion, whereby the atheist harps upon religion stifling scientific endeavor when in fact no such hindrance occurs from Christianity. Abundant cases can be made for secular powers oppressing the Christian and stifling his rights and privileges.

Galileo was not a Catholic on pains of burning, he was one voluntarily. One would think that Dr. Stenger has been reading too many atheist blogs that label any ancient scientist with a religious preference a slave to it on pains of death. History tells us Galileo was threatened for his Heliocentric views because they upset the powerful Roman Church. I would love to see the source for Galileo’s idea that observation rules over revelation. A devout Catholic would hardly have made such a short statement like that without explanation. Context means everything.

The obvious presence of design and complexity in the world, especially in life, proves there was a designer.

Dr Stenger obviously adhering to the theory of Evolution believes intelligent design is an ancient belief, Darwinism replacing such thinking. But, the difficulty arises when the scientist is asked to prove the simple has actually created the complex. In short added more DNA information to its simple structure. This is a monumental problem for all evolutionist because no scientist has been able to show anything but loss of DNA information and what mutation does occur does not create new species. The hype behind evolution is macro evolution gave us complex organisms. The only proof behind it is micro-evolution gives us species mutations and nothing more. The idea of a common ancestor is one of blind faith as no scientist can connect the DNA backwards toward a proof of evolving pre-species. A great deal of talk is generated about this issue, but when it comes to hard data, the jury is out and remains out. As such Dr. Stenger mounts no argument that undermines the design theory. T.O.E is tantamount to belief in a flat earth, only those in academic power attempt to hold to this theory while it has no basis in fact.

Snowflake formation hardly validates species mutation into another species. The idea is to extrapolate “we found a plastic laser gun in the back yard” therefore the inductive reasoning follows “there must be a Starship Enterprise out there some where”. This is a classic Darwin-of -the-gaps answer. A great deal of books are written on the subject of Evolution, each one extrapolating from some mutation, some gene potentials, some chemical capabilities; these speculations conclude that our current genetic make-up is the basis for what we have evolved-into. Yet, its not the observations or the experiments that demand T.O.E as the proper interpretation, unfortunately it appears from instances of resistance to Design theory that its the scientist himself that demands to see what it wants

Many Christians believe in evolution

Dr. Stenger believes that theistic evolution and Intelligent Design are one and the same. They are not the same. It would behoove Dr. Stenger to read up on Intelligent Design. William Dembski has written a book called Intelligent Design The Bridge Between Science and Theology. Published by Intervarsity Press, Downers grove. In the book he makes no claim at pointing people towards a Judeo-Christian God, what he does do is show the reasonableness of the claim that complexity in various animals or man has the ear-marks of an intelligent designer. He also goes on to show that there is genuine scientific methods to be used in verifying designer ear-marks.

I will give Dr. Stenger credit there are very few Christian theistic-evolutionists. Dr.Stenger again demanding science eject God as though science cannot be science if God is believed. I wont read much into this non-sequitor other than its a bias of his own not scientific in the least.

Science still has not shown how life began.

Dr. Stenger rejects the idea that God was necessary to bring life from non-life. He remarks that the basic ingredients of life are copious in space. He then references the Miller-Urey experiment in 1953. If you are an atheist debater and want to die a sudden death in a Christian vs atheist debate follow Dr. Stengers coaching here. Allow me to quote Lance Ponder in an article Creative Science 25 Life from Non-Life

In his last paragraph he mentions the Miller Urey experiment and it goes as follows. 

Odds have not stopped hopeful evolutionists in their daunting task to demonstrate how life might have arose from non-life. The principles of abiogenesis were most famously put to the test in the 1953 experiment was performed by Stanley Miller with the help of Harold Urey. They reproduced an artificial atmosphere to simulate what they thought might be early earth conditions. They then added the necessary soup components into that atmosphere, then applied electricity. The result was the spontaneous organization of organic molecules. The initial results were hailed as a huge step forward in human understanding of origins. Only later did the various problems with the experiment come to light. First, the simulated atmosphere, made up primarily of methane and ammonia, is universally rejected as impossible as an early Earth atmosphere. Very high electric charges had to be used to cause formation of the organic (carbon-based) molecules. The molecules generated were actually cyanide and formaldehyde, both of which are lethal to living cells. Although the Miller-Urey experiments have now been discredited and generally disavowed even by Evolutionists, the basic idea still lingers. Some text books in use today still provide a false impression that these experiments effectively demonstrated how life arose. Thus far every successful attempt to organize atoms, molecules, chemicals of any other level of complexity has involved the careful and purposeful implementation of an intelligent design under tightly controlled conditions not found in nature. It seems, then, that for man to create he must play at God, imitating Him with purpose, design, and very careful hands.


The very thing the Evolutionist use to dismiss God’s creative handiwork is an example of Intelligent Design itself. Yet at the heart of the experiment was the creation of chemicals that kill living cells. The big bang proved the universe had a beginning. Everything that begins has a cause. Therefore the universe had a cause, which was God (Kalām cosmological argument).

To Dr. Stenger its important to say “no laws of physics were necessarily broken to produce the universe”. That is to say roughly “I have blind faith that the explanation for the Beginning of the Universe can be explained by natural causes”. Then another use of faith in Quantum Mechanics to fill the gaps of knowledge for the Big Bang. Instead of addressing the Kalam Cosmological argument itself it was easier to skip to the faith he has in future scientific explanation from a naturalistic point of view.

The universe began with a singularity that marked the beginning of time.

Dr. Stenger now pulls back from the ‘singularity’ explanation to more fantastic ones. I said earlier that Dr. Stenger would fall upon Blind faith to resolve his difficulties arising from these statements. Here is one that highlights such a blind faith. He answers that the creator for the Singularity theory Stephen Hawking, abandoned it about 10 years ago. For him Modern Cosmology has turned to the science-fiction namely Multiverse theory. He says our universe is just one of endless universes that are infinite and eternal…therefore no need for a creator. Its does beg the question…”How does Dr. Stenger know this”?

I can’t help but wonder why the good Dr. has abandoned his own philosophy?

Dr Stenger said; “Only by observation can we demonstrate whether the premises accurately describe or reflect the real world.”

Since we have no way of knowing of another universe yet and have not yet found one, it can only be a blind faith, a belief without good evidence to support that belief. But that does not stop him from offering this to the atheist debater as ‘proof’ of an eternal universe, therefore no big bang and no Creator God needed. The multiverse theory is science fiction, abstractions done to create ‘possibilities’ in order to speculate the outcome of our own universe and the particulars of events. If we will permit multiverses as a reasonable cause for our own universe, then God is no stretch of the imagination by any means.

We cannot detect universes beyond our own. Therefore they are not science

Dr Stenger answers that science deals with theory all the time, its a part of how science proceeds to learn. Fair enough, but just what constitutes a “border” of our universe and one of the other multiverses? How does Dr. Stenger know the cosmic microwave has found its way to us from another universe and it does not belong to our own universe? This line of argumentation takes us into more and more speculation without the slightest evidence for any line of reasoning. In short, those with faith in multiverses existing offer far less than the Christian does. For the Christian claims the God he knows enters our universe and our world and directly effects it by his power and will. This is verifiable, the multiverse sets with the mythologies of ancient beings and for all we know has flat earths.

Where did the mass and energy of the universe come from?

These questions only take Dr. Stenger farther down the path of blind faith and speculation. Now Quantum tunneling is funneling in mass and energy by an earlier universe. Again, this ranks right up there with science fiction. Now, there is nothing wrong with speculation, but its anecdotal and offers us only mental abstractions. Again Ocham’s razor should be slicing off more and more of Dr. Stengers elaborate claims. At this juncture the Christian Apologist need do nothing. The atheist debater has no substantive answers unless your a sci-fi fan and these answers appeal to your imagination.

How can something come from nothing?

Dr. Stenger decides here to revert to Aristotle and claim the eternal universe idea. Its not original but its been scientifically faulted and even Dr. Hawking hasn’t nailed it down yet. Remember, when you have no substantive explanation from science, its not an improvement to jump to science fiction. Its desperation. The Christian Apologist need only remind his listeners that science fiction does not qualify as substantive argument; Dr. Stenger has done nothing to undermine the Christians claims at this point. The reality we all live in tells us “nothing” cannot produce “something”. Its a mental impossibility to conceive of it. We may imagine it, but we cannot reason it from anything in our world.

This will end Part one of this Christian response to Victor Stenger.

VICTOR STENGER A Christian Response to His Atheist Primer 2


Continuing with my response to his atheist primer we look at the rest of Victors Stenger’s comments to Christian objections to Atheism.

Atheists claim that the universe just “popped” into existence. I can’t believe this. It’s preposterous.

Some of these statements which Dr. Stenger lays at the Christians feet and expects them to own them are difficult. Its not that Dr. Stenger is wrong in attributing this to Christians, its that unfortunately Christians offer some pretty poor objections. This is one of them.

Dr. Stenger rightly calls the Christian on this one and if this were the case in which a Christian ‘refused to believe’ based on nothing more than an emotional rejection, or at best what strikes the Christian as preposterous proves nothing and offers no real attack on atheism. When Atheism does this to Christianity while flavoring it with ‘myth-god’ names etc. its an empty statement.

Where did the laws of physics come from?

Dr. Stenger’s answer here is a dismissal, he offers no answer only a corrective on ‘laws’ being principles that scientists build into models to describe their observations. In short, axioms to describe repetition. The Christian Apologist could go down this road to insist that Physics, Mathematics, Logic are all intuitive abstractions that beg to exist outside of the mind. In short they cannot be mental constructs alone, otherwise they lose their objective value. Logic, math or physics that changes from mind to mind is as worthless as opinions on what the weather will be standing right here 10 years from now. This raises the question that Dr. Stenger didn’t want to answer, if Physics cannot rightly be a mental construct locked in natural explanation; where is its origin? Why is it like math and logic whereby they are universally understood by all people in its simplest descriptions? Naturalistic explanations are an epic fail when trying to dismiss the existential place of physics in concept. Someone the other day attempted to describe a snowflake according to the freezing of water vapor after the manner of the physical properties of water, air etc. But when it was all done the point of the snowflake was missed entirely…What point? Why are they beautiful to us? Explanations of a snowflake that sound like an automotive manual don’t scratch the surface of explaining beauty.

If the constants of physics were just slightly different, life would have been impossible. The probability that this happened by accident is infinitesimally small. Therefore they had to be fine-tuned by God.

The argument for fine-tuning was like other arguments for Dr. Stenger, best to side-step than to deal with it head-on. The Christian was not making an argument for ‘any kind’ of life but the plant and animal life we have on our planet now. So, telling us that ‘some kind’ of life might originate from another kind of ‘tuning’ doesn’t answer the question at all, in fact it generates more questions. Dr. Stenger then attempts to turn ‘statistics’ around on the Christian and argue that many things that happen may have very low probability but do happen. This of course only serves the soften the necessary fine-turning for life as we know it. The problem though, for the atheist that offers this argument is, he still must deal with the details of the fine tuning that are germane to the importance of looking at the ‘how’ of fine tuning. Such difficult interaction between, chemical, physical, gravitational, light etc repel chaotic indeterminate chance at every turn. Its the science behind the fine-tuning that mitigates against the Theory of Evolution and calls for re-thinking a theory that will not accept scientific finds that contradict it.

Dr. Stenger then goes on a rant about the probability of God where he ends up implying the Euthyphro dilemma. This is no answer to the fine-tuning objection, but Dr. Stenger is setting up for the Moral argument where he believes he can ‘make points’ .

God gave humans free will so he cannot control suffering.

This is another terrible argument that most Christians would not agree with and surely not me. Defending it against Dr. Stenger is not necessary for me. But we will move on to the heart of the issues in the next statements.

How can there be objective morality without God?

Dr. Stenger now brings up Euthyphro Dilemma. I will allow Matt Slick from Christian Apologetic and Research Ministries to answer this. The main idea for Dr. Stenger is to equalize the morality between Christian and atheist saying both are objectively moral. 

Plato didn’t know about the third option and maybe Dr. Stenger and other atheists don’t read much about these things either. Here’s Matt’s answer.

The Euthyphro dilemma comes from Plato’s Euthyphro dialogue, which has had different forms over the centuries.  Basically, it is “Are moral acts willed by God because they are good, or are they good because they are willed by God?”  Another way of saying it is, does God say that things are moral because they are by nature moral, or do they become moral because God declares them to be?

The dilemma is that if the acts are morally good because they are good by nature, then they are independent of God.  These acts would already be good in themselves and God would have to appeal to them to “find out” what is good.  On the other hand, if something is good because God commands that it is good, then goodness is arbitrary and God could have called murder good and honesty not good.
The Euthyphro dilemma is actually a false dichotomy.  That is, it proposes only two options when another is possible.  The third option is that good is based on God’s nature.  God appeals to nothing other than his own character for the standard of what is good, and then reveals what is good to us.  It is wrong to lie because God cannot lie (Titus 1:2), not because God had to discover lying was wrong or that he arbitrarily declared it to be wrong. This means that God does not arbitrarily declare something to be good (ignoring his own nature) or say that something is good by nature (recognizing a standard outside of himself).  Both of these situations ignore the biblical option that good is a revelation of God’s nature.  In other words, God is good by nature and he reveals that nature to us. Therefore, for the Christian, there is no dilemma since neither position in Euthyphro’s dilemma represents Christian theology

Dr. Stenger’s attempt to equalize moral conditions between the Christian and atheist fails here badly. If it is true that God determines what is moral according to his own nature, then a pretended objective morality claimed by the atheist cannot be equal to the Christian claiming his morality and spirituality are derived from God’s word. The Atheist may deny God and the authority of His word, but they cannot offer anything but popular opinion either in ethics or morality to upset the Christians claims.

Don’t atheists believe that morals are relative, depending on the situation?

Dr. Stenger answers this one as I spelled out earlier; atheism is nuanced by the individual therefore its not dogmatic whether one chooses relativism or not. His assertion that atheists are equally as moral as Christians is an impossibility if the morality for man originates with God. Because if God determines the moral criteria, unbelief and a-theism would categorize the atheist in an immoral state and in perpetual rebellion to true morality. The pretense of atheism is that if they are nice to their fellow humans or they give to causes, or other various good things, this good-action-person cannot be distinguished from Christianity. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Christianity requires an integrity in thought word and deed, whereby the whole of God’s word is integrated into the Christians way of life. The moralism of atheism is like a fad diet, making temporal improvements to the external while internally the person is craving a return to the former diet.

What about all the millions of people murdered by atheists: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot?

Dr. Stenger answers this one with a deflection, a side-stepping and in fact such a obvious error regarding the history of atheism in power its laughable. If you attempt this publicly, be prepared to lose a good part of the audience. Atheism was the driving philosophy behind Stalinism, Marxism and Communism. Hitler was a Mosaic of philosophies

Fichte, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche are also identified as the “philosophical triumvirate of national Socialism” (21). Sherratt shows that Hitler worked hard to display his philosophical knowledge and promote his image as philosopher-leader. From his claim of carrying Schopenhauer with him in the trenches of World War I, to the walking stick he received as a gift from Nietzsche’s sister, Sherratt shows that, “Hitler was a mosaic of influences” Taken from a review of Yvonne Sherratt’s book Hitlers Philosophers


 Hitler’s influences were not orthodox Christian but like Marx and Nietzsche were atheistic. Dr. Stenger needs to own his predecessors warts and all. If ever the subject of the failings of the Church is raised…so be it. But to deny these men did not act in accordance with the philosophies of atheism is false.

Allow me to quote this article.

Just How Many People Has Religion Killed?
Kirk Durston, National Director, New Scholars Society 

A popular urban legend that I’ve often heard is that religion has killed more people than anything else, so the world would be a lot more peaceful place were it not for religion. The top three largest examples are thought to be the Crusades of the Middle Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, and the burning of witches. Scholars estimate that the Crusades of the middle ages cost from 58,000 to 133,000 lives. The most realistic figure for the Spanish Inquisition puts the total killed from AD1480 to AD1808 at up to 31,912. Finally, records indicate that the number of witches killed may be over 30,000. Some argue that records don’t tell everything and suggest that maybe even 100,000 were killed. These three events, totaling over 264,000 killed, are thought to be the largest atrocities perpetrated by one or another form of Christendom. As we shall shortly see, however, they pale into insignificance in comparison to the consequences of atheism.

It must be horrifying to read such numbers and the multitudes of people killed as a result of some form of religious policy. But, before we walk away, lets read the rest of the story.

Kirk Dunston goes on to say.

There are two points to make by way of response. The first point can be made by asking the question, “Are these activities consistent with what Jesus taught?” Most people with even an elementary knowledge of Christ will admit that such killing is inconsistent with His teachings. People often try to justify their hatred, actions, and even killing by appealing to whatever is held in high regard by the population. It follows that if Christianity is or was held in high regard by populations, that certain people with the power to carry out atrocities would attempt to justify them in the name of Christianity. It is a simple-minded person indeed who reasons, “Joe claims he is a Christian–Joe committed an atrocity in the name of Christianity–therefore Christianity promotes atrocities.” The Bible states that the person who says he loves God, but hates his brother, is a liar. There are many people through history that have done horrible things in the name of Christianity, but Jesus’ words, “you will know them by their fruit” tell the real story regarding their love for God and whether they follow the commands of Jesus Christ.

Let us consider these numbers.

The second point to make is that, yes, people who claim to love God do kill, but nowhere near to the extent that the lack of religion does. According to University of Hawaii political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel,[1] <#_ftn1> the total number killed in all of human history is estimated to be about 284,638,000. Of that number, 151,491,000 were killed during the past 100 years. The single largest killer in all of human history is, by far, atheistic Communism with a total of 110,000,000 … over 1/3 of all people ever killed! If we add to that number just two other regimes where religion of any sort was strongly discouraged, Nazi Germany and Nationalist China, the number rises to 141,160,000. Almost 50% of all the killings in human history were committed in the past 100 years by regimes that either actively promoted atheism or strongly discouraged religion. We have not considered the over one billion abortions, where Christianity seems to be particularly unwelcome. When the murders of history are tallied up, it is very clear that atheism is the most dangerous philosophy ever embraced by humanity. The most effective restraint on mankind’s inherently evil tendencies is faith in God through Jesus Christ, a faith that actually follows the teachings and commands of Jesus Christ as a daily way of life.

If we decide to use statistics concerning the claims of Dr. Stenger he simply recites the myth of ‘religion has killed more people’. The truth is far more alarming where we can see the hands of atheism is red with the blood of its victims.

There is convincing evidence that Jesus was a historical figure who performed miracles and rose from the dead.

The life of Jesus is documented so well, its a strange and interesting effect that atheism is having upon Dr. Stenger. The New Testament has so many copies to represent itself and has had so much impact upon history, the cumulative evidence for not only the life of Jesus and his resurrection, but the whole of Christianity; additionally, the changes that the New Testament wrought are everywhere to be seen. Roman historians mention Jesus, but their mention is trifling compared to the New Testament. Dr. Stenger wants us to engage in the Jesus myth and pass it off as a credible fact. There is less evidence for Plato and Socrates than for Jesus. Josephus and Tacitus mentions are not forgeries, but it seems anything that helps his case is as good as gold.

What about Josephus and Tacitus?

Christians a death cult? We as Christians understand we are dead to sin and alive to Christ, baptism being representative of dying to our old self and being raised again in newness of life through the power of Christ. Strange how Dr. Stenger disconnects Jesus from Christianity, the evidences is in and Dr. Stenger has decided that historical revision suits his atheism better than historical fact. The truth is, Josephus and Tacitus offer nothing to the Christian faith it doesn’t already have by the truck load in eyewitness testimonies and the effect their lives had on the Roman Culture around them. In fact the world was never the same again. I do not believe for a moment that Dr. Stenger actually believes Jesus was a myth, its just happens to be a tool in the atheist tool box to perpetuate unbelief even if that tool is unusable for nothing else than providing the shallow-thinking atheist with propaganda.

 There is just as much evidence for the existence of Jesus as for Socrates.

The authors of the New Testament John, Matthew, were both eyewitnesses. Peter is said to have given Mark his information. But the reality is, there were tens of thousands of eye witnesses to Jesus Christ. A great many listened to him speak, others watched him carry the cross, others attended the crucifixion. Others witnessed him after his resurrection. Simply tossing out the New Testament as though its of no historical value to the claims of Christianity is equivalent to tossing out every thing Dr. Stenger has written simply because some folks in the future didn’t like Dr. Stenger and they believed he was false and probably non-existent. The facts are stacked like stones on a pyramid for everyone to recognize and use. Dr. Stenger is offering his atheist debaters more myth and atheist propaganda that has no credibility and surely no truth in it.

Jesus was a great moral teacher whose teachings superseded those of the Old Testament and brought a new code of morality to humanity.

Dr. Stenger appeals to some supposed bible contradictions that support his case. These quoted texts do no pose the slightest contradiction, nor do they support his idea that Jesus was simply some kind of plagiarist. What Dr. Stenger fails to recognize is that Jesus being God gave those laws and judgments to Moses before he became incarnate. For the Christian this is exactly what we believe because the scripture presents a God that is from everlasting to everlasting. The atheist does not believe that claim, but that does not undermine our claim, nor undermine the power and authority of scripture. When Christ brought in the New Covenant, those laws that were a part of a human priesthood, temple service, economy and Hebrew society were removed to make way for the inclusion of the gentiles and the priesthood of all believers. In short, Dr. Stenger doesn’t give the atheist debater anything other than dissenting opinion about scripture he obviously doesn’t understand. Dr. Stenger should have taken his own advice and stayed away from taking on a theologian in his own backyard.

As to the Jews moving from one torment to another. That is a cruel way of saying he thinks God’s judgment to be wrong. Yet, upon what basis can Dr. Stenger make that judgment if God does not exist? There would be no objective morality, nothing but Dr. Stenger’s own criteria for right and wrong…and it holds no more weight than anyone else’s opinion. You must actually presuppose God to indict him on charges of immorality; its the assertion of the Apostle Paul and of reformed apologists like myself that he is merely suppressing his knowledge of God and using arguments to conceal his knowledge.

Atheists believe the only reality is matter. Yet we have many examples of immaterial things such as thoughts, emotions, information, logic, and mathematics. How can that be reconciled with a purely material world?

Dr. Stenger’s answer to this question shows an incredibly weak ability to own what he believes. His epistemic source wont carry his wood for him to the fire place. So, deflection and nuance is the way to answer. To claim some atheists do not hold this view answers nothing for those who do hold that view. Then Dr. Stenger vainly attempts to save himself by offering a materialist answer to the metaphysical. This is the standard answer for a metaphysical naturalist…that the material creates the illusion of the transcendent. The problem lay in that it begs the question. Logical fallacy which is the bane of good argument raises its head here. What Dr. Stenger, Dawkins, Dennett and others have never done is “prove” the impersonal can give rise to the personal. Now, they may say it can and does, but they have no way of proving that. In reading Dr. Dennett’s book Breaking the Spell he goes to great lengths to speculate just how that happens. Yet in the end, we don’t have anything more than speculation over-layed with anecdote and more theory. The Christian apologist might very well respond with asking the atheist debater to explain how the “is” of brain-neurons etc give rise to the “ought” of logic that cannot be proven by anything but itself, so also with math.

If there is no God, how can there be meaning and purpose in life?

Dr. Stenger answers this question by simply ignoring the elephant in the room. Manufacturing your own meaning for life and injecting your own purpose works fine as long as you don’t have to co-exist in harmony with another human being. Otherwise its just short ventures into pleasure seeking that never satisfy to the level Dr. Stenger claims, nor does pleasure anymore than pain carry with it meaningfulness. I call this atheism feeding in the Christians’ pasture. When God has made a comfortable pasture for the people of God, atheism arises at times and says all of this goodness can of itself provide meaning, because the goodness of this life carries with it the value’s and essentially the hope of continued purpose. That purpose being nothing more than the desire to consume the goodness offered in the Christian’s pasture.

Take atheism out of the Christian’s pasture and put him into his own pasture; stark, empty of meaning, materialistically reductionist so that what is beauty can only truthfully be assigned to organized atomic structure. Maybe peacefulness, harmony and joys are banned, maybe the atheist society calls for stoic harshness, cruelty is to be admired, violence to be imitated, survival is not an option nor the theory in some text book but the basic philosophy of human coexistence.

Since there is no God in the atheist mind, the Christians ideas of harmony, peaceful coexistence, joys, love, altruism, benevolence, giving are considered traces of ancient religious oppression. Think for a moment what better way to control the masses but by offering them the hope of peaceful existence. Nietzsche was consistent when he wrote that to remove Christianity is to remove all of it, especially those moral dictates that hinder a society built upon no-god thinking.

The atheist feeding happily in the pasture of Christian-based society may speak bravely how he can live with self-manufactured meaning and purpose, but remove that Christian-based society and look at Communist Russia and Communist China, Communist North Korea and tell me just how many atheists are trying to gain citizenship there? Would Dr. Stenger be able to write his books and live so freely if he were to reject Christian pastureland?

Many people, including myself, have had personal religious experiences where they have had direct contact with God or visited heaven (near-death experiences). Those are empirical facts too.

I dislike these arguments because they only lead to stalemates. Its not that experiences of a religious or spiritual nature are not valid its just that they are as subjective as the atheist’s non-experience. The impossibility of validation between one or the other takes us out of scripture and places us into the realm of judging things according to human autonomy…which as the Christian knows is corrupted by sin. When the Christian apologist surrenders the ground of scripture presupposition and gives entry to human autonomy, the only point of view can be skepticism. But, even that is dangerous. Remember we can be skeptical about skepticism. Its a tail chase.


Dr. Stenger’s argument about hallucinations is a sword that can be used to cut away his arguments as fast as he cuts away at the Christians. Examples along these lines pointing one way or the other are fine as far as they go, but they do not objectively prove God, they subjectively do and that is a different category in which to approach this topic.

There is every reason to believe in God and no good reason not to. If you do, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. (Pascal’s Wager)

Here, we don’t get an answer, we only find ourselves being judged by a back-handed version of Dr. Stenger’s idea that the honest atheist should be in heaven before the deceptive Christian. Again, this is no answer its a deflection. Dr. Stenger does not address the real wager. This is to the Christian apologists advantage, he can show that the atheist debater is no longer answering the Christians objections but deflecting them with opinion.

Many billions of people have a hunger for God. We have a “god-shaped hole” in out hearts. If there was no food, we would have nothing to be hungry about.

It appears Dr. Stenger is trying to draw his own article to a close and offering one liners to answer, which just like the last few questions have not been answered, this one is no different.

The atheist debater should have said this god-shaped-hole is just a mental construct and has no existence outside the mind. But, Dr. Stenger betraying his own philosophy again, we see he must offer the opinion that billions don’t feel that hunger, yet just what kind of questions are going to be asked for science to arrive at a solution that is empirically verifiable? Again, this is another place where the scientist stops talking science and answers with philosophy. He does nothing to help his atheist debater and in fact enmeshes him in existential ideas that are the backyard for the Christian apologist and contrary-wise might as well be Pluto for the atheist. Dr. Dennett tries to answer this and maybe it wasn’t good enough for Dr. Stenger to know or remember. I share that sentiment.

The last three questions. 

They are poor questions designed to attack atheist sentiment rather than strike down anything substantial. Truth is, Christians can be converted and due to their political surroundings plunge themselves into horrible conditions. This is common the world over…its called persecution. Finally when Dr. Stenger marshals out the apostates that condemn the Church and Scripture, its no surprise to the Christian. Jesus said that would happen and it did. We have enemies from within as well as from without. Those enemies do not invalidate the scriptures or the Church by their words and actions, they only damn themselves irreparably and reveal that God can and does make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor.


I hope my readers can see that the atheist debater is not at all helped by Dr. Stenger’s advice. Not only that, but the good Dr. has shown that the Christian apologist need not try very hard to show his atheist debater how ill prepared he will be if armed with Dr. Stenger’s responses. Canning these responses to use against the Christian Apologist will meet with prolonged embarrassment for the atheist and offer a demonstration that atheism is ill-equipped to tackle Christianity when truth and facts are available to both the debaters and the listeners.

Christianity offers how to interpret the World

pascal adding machine

Scripture and the Church offer a cumulative amount of arguments to offer this skeptical world that God exists.
It isn’t that these arguments prove God deductively, its that fact that Christianity offers the most reasonable and cohesive interpretation of how the world works. It offers reasons for how humanity works, and answers better than any other religion how scientific discoveries relate to God’s creation. All other religions pale into insignificance in comparison to Christianity.

The Ontological argument= God is the explanation of innate knowledge of transcendence.
The Teleological argument= God is the explanation for order in the universe.
The Cosmological argument= God is the explanation for creation
The Transcendental argument= God is the explanation for Logic, mathematics.
The Anthropological argument= God is the explanation for mans yearning and consciousness of God
The Moral argument= God is the explanation for objective moral truth.
The Argument for Desire= The appreciation for Beauty, Order, Peace all temporal in this world point to another world where human desire will be satisfied fully.

For the Christian these arguments are wrapped up in scripture and authored by God. The ordinary Christian need go no further than “Thus saith the Lord” to acquire validation for holding these truths. To those who are born of God, the reality of Christ as Savior, Lord and Creator are side-by-side with the reality of physical things. The Christian is the ‘only’ one that can make sense of science, theology, faith and fact without contradiction. Let no skeptic, no atheist, no agnostic tell the Christian that the believers have skewed understanding of reality. Scientism and Materialism in the minds of unbelievers have such short wings they fly only as far as they can continue to suppress the truth in themselves and no farther.

Maybe God is more post modern than we thought? Pt. 1

postmodern art

The Prophet Isaiah declares;

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
Isa 40:11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.
Isa 40:12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?
Isa 40:13 Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD, or what man shows him his counsel?
Isa 40:14 Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Scripture speaks of God as mighty, caring, immense, wise, all knowing; but today the God of scripture is charged with being immoral, uncaring, weak and ignorant. Why? It seems the postmodern mind has determined God does not fit the mold of their conceptions of good or evil. For the post modernist, God is really weak because his claim to unlimited knowledge doesn’t jibe with their inability to reconcile why supposed innocents are left to the slaughter of lunatic gunmen, insane terrorists, exploiting greedy men while God seemingly does nothing about it. For others God is a buzz-kill a party spoiler. To these postmodernist thinkers God represents the fly-in-the-ointment or wrench inside the gears. God gets in the way of a happy conscience that will have all it wants and whatever it wants with no feelings of guilt. “Let no one guilt trip me about homosexuality or about gay marriage”, others say “there is no objective truth, its what we make of every situation, how we describe it, how we define it, we create our own morality and in turn our own ethic, there is no need for ancient standards to invade the individuals freedom”.  For them to jettison ancient standards is to invite freedom from ancient oppressors. What is the upside? Freedom from guilt, freedom from scrutiny, freedom from accountability to others, freedom from adherence to truth statements that are mere perspectives framed in words used to categorize and oppress those who do not agree with those in power.

To other postmodernists, the God of scripture is unable to identify who he/she is. The postmodernist believes they are evolving as a person, changing and moving from idea to idea, need to need; each day and each moment presents to them the school of what it means to be who they are. Situational-ethics is more than a chosen moral act of the moment, its a progression of being, it’s learning what it means to just be themselves in the face of myriads of moral and ethical dilemmas. For some, morphing is necessary part of who they are.  The question arises, how can God know me, I don’t know myself? How can God judge me, I am still learning, still evolving and what I was, I am not now, what I will be has not yet appeared?

The postmodernist worldview is not liberal or democratic per-se, it uses liberalism or a political party as a vehicle to further the individuals own happiness. Much the same way Christians will use the Republican party as a vehicle to pursue modernist and conservative philosophies that are conducive to a Christian lifestyle. Political platforms and philosophies are vehicles, they always have been vehicles. Ask anyone who is thinking about the world, their own place in it and how attitudes and culture affects them and they will tell you that making the whole world liberal is not the goal, making the whole world conservative is not the goal. What is the goal? Its to find a place and a people where they may be free to live as they truly are and express themselves without fear of reprisal. In short, its a place and people that will love and accept them for what they are.  The Postmodernist is seeking community, but community not built upon constraint but freedom, love not hate, tolerance not intolerance, expression not repression. The meta-narratives of the world do not answer the desires within them, religion or atheism can be a vehicle but not in itself the answer. For the postmodernist, they have found that in the past others have sought the same community, but they failed. Why? The postmodernist concludes that the modernist mindset that presupposed the meta-narratives of the past was the poison that eventually killed genuine community.

What were the supports for the meta-narratives? In short, the postmodernist pulls out the main 4 pillars that give the modernist meta-narrative the power to stand . Those four I believe are contained  in this. Personal fulfillment, Objective truth, Historical interpretation, Human identity 1.  Allow me to show you how it appears to work. Personal fulfillment is the acting out of our own personal desires, whereby what we do is loved and appreciated, not just for the act itself but because I am doing it and it represents a clear expression of myself in some form. Any meta-narrative that prohibits or denies my freedom of expression sexually, morally, verbally or in acts or deeds through art, literature, invention or some form of creativity is an enemy to me.  The postmodernist says I am trapped and condemned by such a narrative. When objective truth is used, it is generally regarded as not objective but subjective and therefore oppressive. The truth is again just another form of containment, but this time it’s built on words and ideas that may have nothing to do with me or my world. Truth, becomes the law of the oppressor, the prison guard that forbids expression of all that is contradictory to that so-called ‘truth’. The postmodernist says “who wants truth that is nothing more than a verbalized power play”? Historical interpretation again deals with the idea that language does not convey truth to the postmodernist, but an interpretation of events tailored to give one side advantage over another. The postmodernist says “I don’t agree that history can warn me of a future event, or that it has relevance to my way of living.” Finally human identity used by the modernist is for categorizing people into various ‘kinds’ that do not necessarily fit me and it again is simply a way to corral people into groups for the benefit of others.

Hopefully through some of this, I have represented the postmodernist mindset. No doubt it will not fit all and it might even be errant in some respects considering I am not a postmodernist myself. I do hope that I have at least offered a usable sketch that can take us where I am attempting to go.

Now let us transfer some of these traits of postmodernism to what God has said about himself. It’s fair to give God a hearing, the postmodernist believes he/she should be heard on the mere basis that what they think and feel is important, so too, God should be given the same respect and audience.

I will ask a few basic questions.

1. Is it not fair that God has the right to express himself as he wills?

2. Cannot God who created the world and all that is in it, determine to do what he wills with what he has made without being condemned by those who do not share that same power?

3. Can God know something we do not know, act upon it then proceed to alter the course of multitudes based upon information that we do not have?

4. Is it fair to condemn God according to our standards of morality when postmodernism permits many various expressions of morality and applauds itself for doing so?

5. How can we who do not have the power to know the future or shape our lives with certainty lay claim that God is weak when in fact his actions at any moment are not easily discerned?

6. Why do we humans presume to judge God on the morals and mindset that we have now, when in years past God would have been applauded and vindicated?

7. Is postmodernism saying its the ‘culmination of wisdom and fairness’ for all generations?

You are free to answer these questions for yourself. As a postmodernist its very modern to set the judgment bar to where you judge God cannot jump over it. But is that what postmodernism is about? Is it about making God a villain in order to pretend we are bigger, smarter and more powerful than is reality?

More about God and postmodernism to come.

1. Take from Kevin Vanhoozer’s work mentioned in Alister McGrath’s book Mere Apologetics Baker Books pg.33-34.